Stellar? No. Finale? YES!

Definite spoilers follow on Episode #313

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25? Good enough.

Usually I don't put my oar in first, but this episode really struck me.

The episode wasn't the best one there ever was (the kiss by Trent, for example, was completely contrived), but it was the best "fan" episode, so it's a great season finale.

What do I mean? It was an episode that seems designed for fans. For instance, there is quite a bit to satisfy the 'shippers among us (I'm not one). As a fan, it was satisfying to see the kiss, *regardless* of how contrived it was, maybe even *because* it was. It was nice to see Daria smile after that. I was caught up into the whole thing emotionally. That kiss is the culmination of 38 episodes of development (not 39 as Trent was not introduced until 102). A non fan would say, "ho hum, so he kissed her. Big Deal".

The angst between Jane and Daria is some of the more gritty writing to date. Again, it was a bit contrived, but it puts more humanity on Daria. Daria can behave inconsistently--even stupidly--based on an emotional response. She's not perfect and behaved childlishly, and she more or less has to admit it. I can't say it's quite realistic, as any friend as close as Jane would certainly call Daria on the carpet for the behavior. She hardly gets upset. Again it doesn't matter.

The happy ending, again, was not the usual sarcastic or ironic tagline. ("I'm jiggy with it", Kevin sweating as a model, "oh the humanity", etc.) For the Daria mold, the final jab is what makes a good episode, but here the ending is tailored to give a wonderful sense of resolution to a season.

The best bit of writing in the show was the actual multi-media presentations. Original and crisp.

I look forward to Mike Quinn's delayed reaction on this one.

Sincerely impressed, Rev. Paul L. Vasquez

father_v wrote:

I have to admit that this ep made my top 3-- and my #1 for season 3-- it was one of the best character development eps in the bunch. And, yes, I rewatched it twice. (And I watched the last bit of conversation a few more times to try to get a handle on it, too.)

Glenn Eichler-- you're a damn good writer!

Yeah, it had some "fannish" aspects, but it was otherwise very strong in the character development line-- no distractions from Quinn, Brittany, or any of the other characters.

I've discussed my POV on this in another, rather long-ish post. I have a feeling that this thread is going to get *very* long. *Sigh*

Yeah-- it's good to see Daria as a more human character-- someone who isn't always right, because who really is? (Besides me, of course. ;-) And a small part of her anger seemed to be coming from her frustration in dealing with Trent, too. She's not used to dealing with his type.

Yeah, as someone else said, this would be a great series finale ep, too. But thank Providence that it isn't. (But the Drought! O! The drought!) ;-)

BTW, there still isn't any word on a 5th season-- WRITE THOSE LETTERS!

My very favorite part was Upchuck's presentation-- I couldn't stop laughing. In fact, as I'm typing this, I'm laughing again.

(Am I the only person who thought that Upchuck in his MM presentation reminded him of a pipe-less J.R. "Bob" Dobbs?)

As do I.

In spite of the fog created by the D/T plotline, A+. Only 4 other eps have gotten that mark from me-- 113, 213, 301, and 308. Add 313 to the list, and give it the nod over 308 and 301, just for the Upchuck presentation. ;-) But 213 is STILL my very very very favorite.

As someone else said, this also puts that ridiculous Jane/Jesse thing to the death it so richly deserves. Yaaaay! We all knew that she could do so much better than him.

As for Tom, we'll see if he shows up in season 4-- I sincerely hope so-- I would be very disappointed if they followed the traditional sit-com formula of mysteriously dumping a character just because it changes the chemistry. I already can't wait for season 4-- it should be *very* interesting to see how all of this pans out.

All I have to say is thank goodness I don't have any closings tomorrow. ;-)

Also Sincerely Impressed, rich.

Jane: You're a twisted little cruller, ain't'cha?

In article , [email] wrote:

I am having a lot of trouble biting my tongue about this ep for now (gawd, I want everyone to read the review). I so want to respond to almost every post I seen so far.

The only thing I feel I want to say for now is that I still feel that Speedtrapped will end up being my favorite episode of season three. I still have to go over this ep again, so that could change.

I don't give A+'s ;)

Rest in pieces!

There's really no reason not to see Tom again. He would be a welcome addition as a recurring character.

In article ,

Just being part of coaxing you out this far this early is going to stay with me a long time. :-)

Sincerely, Rev. Paul L. Vasuqez

In article ,

I have a whole boat load of opinions that are all in my mind (I would prepare for one long review but not because this ep was bad)

You guys may even be able to coax a potential grade range out of me by the end of the day if you're nice enough ;)

Rev. Vasquez said:

Daria

You greatly misunderstood the significance of the kiss. It was "goodbye", not "hello". Daria had just finished explaining to Trent, implicitly, why his lack of reliability meant that she could never love him. And he had just finished explaining to her, also implicitly, why he didn't want to change.

Yes. I was glad that they showed Daria being less than perfect. Did you notice that the stubborn expression she got on her face there was exactly the same one they've showed on her face as a three year old in the home movies?

Jane understood Daria's jealousy, she loves Daria, and she was also in a good mood about meeting Tom. Jane to some extent also couldn't even believe how Daria was acting. Jane was getting angrier and angrier though ... fortunately, Tom spoke to Daria before the situation led to an explosion.

Incidentally ... Tom MUST be a good guy, or he would have cheerfully let Daria and Jane break up. From a short-term selfish perspective, that would have been advantageous to his own suit.

Oh, those were a hoot! :)

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

[email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

Agreed-- all of my favorite eps, end in 13, though. Weird. (But I'm too lazy to change my code for now.)

This is going to be hard for me to say, as I do not consider myself a member of the 'shipper camp, and I usually avoid this topic like the plague, but I must disagree. *Gasp!*

It didn't sound like a break-up to me-- this is tough to explain, but I'll give it a shot. To me, it sounded like a genuine attempt at communication between the two-- they're just starting to understand each other. You know, for all of the speculation about this non-relationship (there never was one, BTW), nobody's bothered to mention that they've never had more than a couple of conversations that went beyond, "Hey" in the previous 38 episodes. (Unlike the myriad scenarios played out in fanfic... ;-)

She's FINALLY seeing him for what he is-- not a crush object, but a real human being with faults and foibles. Until now, she was never in a position to have a real relationship with him, anyway. This has been my contention during the whole series, BTW-- a crush *alone* does not a good relationship make, no matter how intense it seems at times. She wouldn't've entered the relationship as an equal. Now, she is. She understands him better for the experience, as she understands that the way he feels compelled to create does not jive with her ideals. But notice that she didn't say that he was bad, wrong, or evil for being creative in his own way-- she merely explained her point of view, that their methods of creativity didn't mesh. That doens't mean that they can't have a relationship, just that they shouldn't work together. (Which is probably a good idea, anyway.) I have to admit that women with differing ways of looking at life are more attractive to me than those who are exactly the same as I am-- there needs to be some common ground, but who wants to marry a fe/male version of him/herself? His "different-ness" has always been the attraction for her-- now she understands what that differentness entails.

In article , [email] wrote:

for

episode, so

For

(I'm not

how

see

That

"goodbye", not

his lack

finished

I was in favor of the other argument, but you wrote this so damn well, you made me think. "It really makes you think". Now I think this is partly true, and some of the other argument is true. Damn you different ones and your insidious logic! You and Jordan always do this to me!

wicka_chick

Spoiler-ishy stuff from JA... 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

That should do.

[email] wrote:

That's why it was such a damn good ep-- you can interpret it about a bajillion different ways. As usual, the truth either lies in-between, or in a totally undiscovered place. But I don't think anyone was expecting a D/T plotline in this ep-- everyone thought that LM would be it for the season-- I like it when they mess with us like that.

Either way, I will agreee about one thing-- the Crush is dead. The only question is, "Now what?" There's a lot of room to wander in that little two-word question.

If the truth lies in-between: I said before that "people don't change." I oversimplified-- people do change all the time, but they have to WANT to change, and that's why most people DON'T change. If Trent got his act together a little-- and who knows, he might actually buy a watch (oh, God, I just inspired a shipper fic, I bet...) things would probably change dramatically. Of course, he has to be mature enough to understand that. We'll see. If he doesn't, though, he'll just be "Jane's Brother." I suspect that either way, the ball is in his court.

If the truth lies in a different place: They may create another character who's just like poor Trent, only better... much to his dismay.-- Oh, that was Evil of me. Must be my Darth Vader tendencies kicking in. }:-{)>

Smiling serenely to myself, rich. one of the "different ones."

Quinn: People are so weird!

Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.

Paperpusher said:

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On the other hand, Daria is much more comfortable around Trent now. And the Crush is dead because Daria views Trent more realistically now ... NOT because Trent rejected Daria. If anything, I think that Trent now sees Daria as someone desirable but whom he isn't worthy of.

A few points:

1) Trent's career may wind up going somewhere soon ... his band has gotten better.

2) Trent's the "competent" and "responsible" one in his band ... he'll have to mature to make it happen.

3) Daria's not going to wait around forever ... she's likely to meet someone in the meantime.

• Wonder how Trent would react if he saw Daria liking somebody else?

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

[email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

Either that, or he may just go off in a different direction-- he's the "brains" of that group, and I've got to believe that they frustrate the hell out of him sometimes. (I know they'd have me climbing the walls.) Then again, the band may just self-destruct, too. (I've seen that happen-- it's not a pretty thing.)

Yeah, but if they don't mature too, then he's screwed. Besides, he may be competent and responsible, but he's also always late and forgetful, too. That boy needs a watch. And even a small notepad to remember when he has to be somewhere wouldn't compromise his "art." If he's the competent and responsible one, I'm worried.

What Trent could really use is a day job at a music store-- yeah, it's a compromise, but he could learn a lot that way-- about business and himself, and maybe he can make some good contacts. Ya gotta have a backup plan sometimes.

I dunno. Remember, this IS Lawndale we're talking about. But then again, you never know what those crafty writers are up to. ;-)

Now that's a very interesting plotline to consider. Given Trent's nature, though, I would think that it would cement his feelings of inadequacy. Unless, of course, the "somebody else" is Upchuck or Kevin. (You know, like maybe she hit her head or something, and accidentally agreed to go out with one of them.) ;-) Oh, jeez, that sounds like another bad shipper fic plot. *sigh*

Aaaanyway, as I said before, there's a LOT of room in that 2-word question: Now what?

rich.

Quinn: People are so weird!

Daria: Some are weird. Some are just astonishingly self-centered and deceitful.

In article , [email] wrote:

Correct, the crush is dead, but the "relationship"(lack of a better word)is not, as said before it's time to shift this plotline in another direction.

Right again. It's up to him to take the next step, mature at least somewhat, or stay as he is and they remain "just friends".

A.J.

In article , [email] wrote:

Agreed all the way, but for anything to hapen Trent has to mature, even if only some. It was a "sorry I screwed up" kiss in both meanings of their conversation, with the intention of letting her know his feelings. If she was truly over it, you're right that she wouldn't have smiled, she'd be stonefaced, or would have let someother emotion out, but ot a smile. The kiss was his apology and a request for a 2nd chance, it may take a bit more time but the crush/relationship should resurface, as you said why kill a good plotline, they're just redirecting it.

A.J.

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not

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I will bet you money that "shippers" will read it one way and "anti-shippers" will read it the opposite. Meanwhile those of us outside the TD or not TD argument will see it one way or the other. That's what I liked about this episode. It will undoubtedly please both shippers and anti-shippers. (and just imagine all the fanfics it will generate!!)

I liked the whole episode. The multimedia presentations where funny (Kev & Brittany's was a classic!) and it's always good to see new characters added. And background one's fleshed out a little. (the band will probly be much more prominent in the next ep) and it was good to see Daria and Jane yelling at Trent. Plus this episode might get rid of the whole Jane/Jesse thing that always sort of bothered me. At least Jesse got more lines ("this was the first set!")

In article ,

Personally, I am in heaven! This is my new fave and I am elated! I don't think it will be my favorite for long since it has little 'rewatch quality' but I will just wallow in ecstasy for now.

That last scene was crucial and very metaphorical or something. Baisically Glen did as promised, he addressed the Daria/Trent thing. What Lane Miz and Jane's Addition said was: They will not hook up. They are too different in their veiws on commitment. And while the kiss softened the blow, the shippers have no hope whatsoever in my opinion. I think Daria has finally gotten over her crush (though I know she enjoyed that kiss) and that storyline has reached an end. They are just good friends.

tagline. ("I'm

For the

ending

which worked quite well.

I think the multimedia was the best part. Especially the drawing of Amanda ("We have a garage?") The drawings though were less of what I expected of Jane. Oh, and speaking of expectations, I think this episode featured Trent's first actual "good" song. It was edgy!

Me too.

Oh, and my favorite quotes:

Jane- Where are you going? Trent- Anywhere but here. Jane- Deadbeat! Daria- Screw up!

Helen- meeting! Quinn- Date! Daria- Sarcasm!

Jane- When are you going to be done with that stupid music?! Trent- Whoa, how did you know it was stupid?

Trent- Help yourself to that hot water.

well winding down now,

wicka_chick

Helen- You know I used to wear miniskirts...but life goes on.

In article , [email] wrote:

The situation was addressed, NOT resolved, but if it's not resolved, there can't be much left without asignificant change in the characters attitudes.

If I didn't know better i'd say this was a series not a season finale. It was very well done, indeed.

This and the song in "Lane Miz" are his 2 best.

A.J.

In article , [email] wrote:

episode

Which, in a way, is another example of how the writers let the characters grow. Trent's music has shown much improvement throughout the series.

wicka_chick

wrote in message news:7phor2$ejc$[email]...

How could his music do otherwise? It couldn't have gotten much worse.

"R. K. Henry" wrote:

One word: viola. ;-)

rich.

Max: We're criminales!

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 In article , [email] wrote:

It was a FRIENDLY KISS ON THE CHEEK. Nothing more. I agree with you...Daria now knows Trent would be totally wrong for her. And the reason why Trent has avoided any sort of involvement with her is this: he didn't think he was good enough for her. Age had nothing to do with it.

--.\\<-H--

Michelle Klein-Hass wrote in message news:[email]...

I definitely think that was a good-bye kiss. If it were intended to be more he would have gotten more agressive. If he'd intended to maintain the status-quo he wouldn't have done anything.

"It was time for us to move on."

Michelle Klein-Hass said:

Despoilers come to ravage the village and burn the crops standing in the field * * * * *

Though, unlike the damned spirit of Saddam Hussein, I really think that Trent could change for the better.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

Wicka Chick said:

Don't know about "never", but it's definitely "not unless Trent matures".

I think she loves Trent as a friend now. The kiss was "goodbye, no hard feelings, I still care about you."

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

In article ,

I wouldn't be surprised if MTV, among other people, gets inundated with "Was that the last episode?" type questions from fans. It had a very nice sense of finality to it, and if I didn't know that a fourth season was en route, I'd have wondered if this was the series finale.

I'd have to say the best writing was when Daria and Trent discussed his failing to contribute to the project to the point that they weren't *really* talking about the project anymore. The line about "We have different ideas about commitment" really caught my attention, and things kind of escalated from there. If "Lane Miserables" didn't resolve the Trent thing (and it didn't), this did. And then there's Tom, who I assume will be resurfacing for Season 4. He didn't strike me as having much of a personality other than an ability to make sarcastic jibes and a concern for Daria's feelings. If he returns as a regular, I guess he'll develop more. Side note: this is the only episode I know of that doesn't show Quinn or the rest of the Morgendorffers at all. True, they spoke, but it was only one word each. Amanda did make another appearance, though, even if it was only computerized.

Rustnt said:

(spoilers)

Yes ... that was GREAT.

That's the big difference between Daria and Trent. Daria, for all her pretended cynicism, takes her life and responsibilities seriously. Trent doesn't. This is the great incompatibility between them, which would destroy any relationship they tried to have.

This is all we've seen so far. However, he impresses me as a genuinely good person. First of all, he's clearly attracted to people who are constructive non-conformists ... I don't think he homed in on Jane because of her looks. Secondly, he chose to help mend Daria and Jane's relationship, despite Daria's hostility to him, rather than take advantage of the split to get closer to Jane (which many guys would have done). I think he truly cares about Jane, and could be a good friend to Daria, too.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

In article ,

Correct, it would take a major change in Trent's attitude for anything to work out between them, but something from this "relationship" has to resurface in season 4, this ep. doesn't resolve their relationship, remember, we were told this at the beginning of this season.

He does truly care for Jane and has found another friend as a bonus in Daria, he must like her because no one would come back for more of Daria's attitude if he didn't see a chance for them to be friends. I think Daria's circle of friends has increased by one, when her shell was broken and she and Tom found common ground it's all ok from there on. This now gives the show a 3rd possible protagonist in Tom, I wonder what adventures these 3 will get into together?

A.J.

Cheese said:

Trent is definitely attracted to Daria now (witness his behavior all through the episode). Daria still find Trent attractive, but "attractiveness" is no longer the issue here, she's moved beyond that into evaluating his desirability as a long-term mate.

Daria's problem now is expressed rather well in her first daydream sequence from "Lane Miserables"; she's afraid that if she got involved with Trent she would wind up carrying all the load for both of them. Trent has to demonstrate some responsibility to be a desirable husband (and Daria clearly thinks in those terms); this episode he did the opposite, instead trying to justify his inept behavior.

One obvious possible development, especially if Jane winds up treating Tom badly, would be a love triangle. I didn't see any obvious attraction between Daria and Tom, but by the end of the episode they liked each other as friends.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

spoiler space saves sighs... of frustration...
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[email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

Sorry, but I had to interject here-- you sound a little like Desmond Morris. ;-) "The young female bases her selection of a mate on many factors, not the least of which is his ability to provide for any young... " LOL. If you've ever seen "The Human Animal," or "Between the Sexes," then you know what I'm talking about. ;-)

Whoa, now, pardner... she's only 17. I doubt she's looking for a husband yet-- she still has HS to finish, and then College after that. Frankly, before she'll be ready for a serious long-term relationship with another human being, she's got a lot of work to do as well. JA proved that her interpersonal skills could really use some work-- especially around her friends.

It's funny-- everyone is quick to criticize Trent for being a bit reckless, but nobody's willing to criticize Daria for being inflexible, except WRT her relationship with Jane. BOTH have a lot of maturing to do.

Oh, God, I hope not. Leave love triangles and such for the places they belong-- soap operas and fanfic. ;-)

rich.

Daria: He said master *painters.*

In article , [email] wrote:

(and causes just as many)

<snip>

Do you really see any general fault in the way Daria behaved towards Trent in this episode? I thought it remarkably candid and straightforward. Call me crazy, but "a lot" of maturing seems a bit too much to me. She seems a lot more mature than the teenagers I've had contact with (had to teach them last year), and certainly as mature as most adults.

As I review the episode, also, it does appear that Tom is being rather pushy in getting into Jane's time. There was an episode of Seinfeld where there was a guy who kept wheedling into Elaine's time and schedule. It reminded me a lot of that. Daria's immediate reaction seems less reprehensible in its base to me now, although she took it to extremes. Questioning the fellow's motives when he always "happened" to show up is not entirely unreasonable.

Don't forget Japanese anime. They *love* triangles (excuse the pun ;-) ). Ramiko Takahashi can do them without even trying and Maison Ikkoku is loaded with quite entertaining ones, really. The terrible and horrific charge of "soap opera" could perhaps be laid at its door, but given the comedy of it, I don't think it sticks well.

I hope this isn't too forward of me, but I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this almost ended discussion. More and more I am impressed with the depth, cleverness, and humor of what has been said here in particular, and it will remain in my memory for some time to come. Moreover, we only said what had to be said without beating a dead horse, or becoming a port for the 'ships to come in. :-) Thanks again.

Sincerely, Rev. Paul L. Vasquez

father_v wrote:

Well, other than her snapping at Trent? No, not really. I found fault with the way she treated Jane. But she is very inflexible, and needs to understand that sometimes it's okay to take a risk. Just like Trent needs to understand that sometimes it's okay to show up somewhere on time.

Yes and no. Yes, she's mature about some things, but she still needs more experience in others.

Yes, but there's usually a lot of that when you are dating someone. It just goes with the territory.

rich.

Helen: Bureaucracy is the price we pay for impartiality.

Jake: Jefferson!

Helen: Stalin.

On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:07:23 GMT, [email] (paperpusher) wrote:

I don't know about the others, but the reason why _I_ don't criticize Daria for her inflexibility is because I share that same inflexibility. In fact I've been told many times (guess by whom) that if I don't get more tolerant towards other people's mistakes, I will never find a woman. I can only say: If that's the case, so be it! _I_ am not going to change, come hell or high water. MSB

In article , [email] wrote:

his

*really*

ideas

escalated

it

I think that this conversation (And Trent's mild nervousness around Daria in this ep) kinda revealed that he knew Daria had a crush on him, and maybe he had some feelings for her as well and the thought of a hook up crossed his mind. He then obviously came to Daria's same revalation she reached after her fantasy, 'it won't work out'.

hoping to not talk this topic to death,

wicka_chick

Wicka Chick said:

One of the very sad things about this episode is that IMO Trent had finally come to realize that Daria was a woman, not just a little girl, but the realization came too late for him, because Daria had finally come to realize that Trent was truly shiftless.

Yes. And the knowledge that she was rejecting him made him very unhappy.

Sincerely Yours, Jordan

"Man is a god in ruins" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)