Is It Fall Yet? - Spoilers

Boy,

I

really

wanted

to

see

Dave

what

ever

the

hell

his

name

is

rather

than

the

alter

egos

Hmmm.

Things that weren't surprising

Daria and Jane making up for real Brittany and Kevin ending up in the ice cream truck O'Neill really screwing up at his summer camp

Things that were surprising

Daria and Tom aren't history Mack and Jodie having an 'aw that's sweet' scene DeMartino Not sucking at the summer camp

Things that were stunning Quinn

OK, the bi- non-issue. It didn't seem to me that Jane had any real wavering. She had a momentary question, but realized that she had been fed a line immediately afterward.

Daria not being able to reach through to the camper, I haven't decided yet if I like the last minute reversal of the failure.

Of course, the big thing, other than Daria having to come to grips with actually having a social life, was the development with Quinn.

Daria (the show) thus far has been pretty good about not backsliding characters. If they are going to continue that, then Quinn can't really return to being completely oblivious to knowledge. She'll continue to hang with the Fashion Club, but the discarded skin should be harder and harder for her to wear.

And the talk between Daria and Quinn at the end. Everything about it was good, including Daria surreptitiously shooing Jane away from the door and Jane picking up on it, and the structure of Daria's speech to Quinn, where everything she was telling Quinn applied equally to Daria and Tom, and Daria would clearly be aware of that. I especially liked Quinn pointing out that Daria's adopted persona fulfills exactly the same function as Quinn's.

I wasn't disappointed in it. Well, except for having Dave Kendall cover up some of the alter egos.

spoiler space

should be enough.

I have to say that I really liked this. I was just left with a warm, fuzzy feeling when it was over. Nearly everyone connected emotionally with someone. Most of the cast grew in some way or another.

Connections and Failed connections [not in chronological order]: Jane and the artist(I forget the name) [disillusionment and failed physical connection] DeMartino and the Ok to Cry Corral kids [success] O'Neil and the Ok to Cry Corral kids [failed] Daria and Eric? [Daria jr.] Daria and Quinn [twice!] Daria and Jane [still be fricken friends] Daria and Tom [kissing finally, and the car windows looked fogged over at the end] Tom's family and Daria and Daria's family and Tom Jodie's parents and Tom's parents [for the club] Quinn and the tutor [learning can be interesting] Quinn and the tutor [I bet this was the first time anyone ever turned her down] Mack and Jodie [finally] Kevin and Brittany [pool fight,CPR,...] Jake and humor [that was a joke, right?] Jake and Helen [Why did the chicken cross the road?]

Things that stood out for me: Daria doing everything she could to drive Tom away and then feeling bad about it afterward. Quinn has developed depth! I almost like her and her pedagogy. Daria and Jane are friends again. Daria reaching out to Eric? [Daria jr.] I would expect we'll see more of him this season.

It was just good.

--jeff

That would be kinda cool - except wasn't his name Link?

Yes, it was good. And God, I know Daria and I share a name (if not a name pronunciation), but she becomes *more* and *more* like me than ever... that whole pushing away your first boyfriend thing..... God. --Daria http://onlywords.cjb.net Deborah Gibson: Only Words OnlyUpdates: The Only Words Update List!

more spoiler space

In article , "Jeff Cuscutis" wrote:

fuzzy

Did you notice the "outtakes" over the end credits, similar to those at the end of "A Bug's Life"? I laughed at different points in the movie (and loved the whole thing), but I was ROFL with all the "mistakes" at the end. When it's a live movie the outtakes are just throwaway bits, but to animate "mess-ups" is true dedication.

Alisha

In article , RedAliCat wrote:

[spoiler space]

Maybe I missed something, but I didn't think of those as featuring "mistakes." It looked to me more like they were intended as stills from bits that got "edited out." I've noticed that the Daria animators seem to have an easier time showing extreme facial expressions in stills and you could definitely see that there.

Kevin

RedAliCat wrote in message ...

For some reason, that picture of Daria with her hand on the art teacher's butt cracks me up. It's SO out of character. :)

Joe

Men who never make passes At women who wear glasses Are asses. --Rita Rudner

In article ,

All in all, I agree.

     How about this for a failed connection:  Daria and David!
Was I the only one yelling at the TV set "DARIA YOU FOOL PAY ATTENTION
TO DAVID"?  (All right, so I didn't actually yell it out loud.  It
might have disturbed my roommate a bit.)  I must admit that I've never
much cared for Tom and he and Daria don't seem like a couple with a
future to me.  What do they have in common?
     David, on the other hand, seems absolutely perfect for Daria.  I
was sort of expecting that Quinn would wind up jealous of Daria for
once...you can see all sorts of interesting dynamics in that story line.
Well, I can only hope for future episodes.  David had enough screen time
that he doesn't seem like just a one-time character.

[snip]

Does everyone think it's fairly clear that they had sex at the end? There was a prominent shot of the car that certainly carried some sort of implication but I'm not sure if it's absolutely clear-cut. I suppose that Daria and Tom are now like Beren and Luthien in that people can speculate eternally about whether they did the deed.

Why do you think she tried to drive him away? Some might say she was scared of her own feelings. I think she could tell he wasn't quite right to her. He's the first reasonably attractive, non-jerk guy who's showed serious interest in her and that's been adequate to get quite a reaction out of her, but it's not enough for a long-term relationship.

It was worth getting up early for.

Kevin

Kevin said:

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I don't think that they had sex. For one thing, they were sitting in a car _parked right in front of her parents' home_, and also right out on the street where anyone could pass by and look in. (Indeed, where they were visible _from the Morgendorffer front [address]). So, unless you want to assume that they just lost control, I don't think they did anything which would involve disrobing.

For that matter, I don't think that they even went all that far. Tom said something about "we can take it slow": the clear implication being that he wasn't going to immediately make any serious physical demands. Earlier, when he complained "We _don't_ do anything", he was probably referring both to her avoiding him and Daria's relative prudishness.

On the other hand, that was one _long_ kiss. It would be reasonable to assume that they were at least making out ... second, maybe third base (to use the American baseball analogies).

I can't really tell, yet, whether he's "right for her." They are certainly attracted to each other, and relate to each other well. I think the main problems with him, if these _are_ problems, are:

• He's subconsciously a snob (note his attitude toward the Lanes),

2) He's too emotionally detached (note his attitude toward Jane when he "got bored") and thus not really serious about the whole thing.

Honestly, I would not count Trent out in the long run.

Ok, I havn't seen IIFY or am not likley to do so in the near future, due of course to geographical accident of birth :) But anyways.....

[email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote in :

Err to have sex they would not have to take *ANY* clothes off, after all Daria wears a skirt, and I presume that Tom has worked out how trouser fasteners work by now :) But yes other things being considdered being caught doing "it" (to steal a phrase from B&B), right outside your parents house might not be a good thing, especially considdering Jake's statement from "See Jane Run"....."...He's not presureing you to *DO* anything is he ?".

<Beavis>That sucks, we don't get to see them do it !</Beavis>

Yeah from what's been said I think they are making out :)

Shipper :)

Phill.

Phill Harvey-Smith said:

You're mostly technically correct (I'd assume that Daria wears panties), but my point was that it would be _really_ obvious to anyone who walked by what they were doing.

Not a good way to have your first time end.

"Jordan S. Bassior" wrote:

hey! let's start a discussion about what style they'd be! i'm guessing heavily-armoured whities. but(t) seriously, folks...

okay, look everybody, they weren't freaking doing it, okay? for one thing, there is no evidence in Daria's previously-established character (even as that character becomes more and more subjective) that would indicate she would do something that serious in a car right in front of her house. she's a bit more of a lady than that, methinks (and her personality, as far as i can tell, falls under that of the Idealists [if you're into the whole Kiersey Temperament Sorter/MMPI scene], who don't change their core values like EVER). and Tom seems like too much of a gentleman to engage in such a trashy display as well.

for another thing, the car wasn't shaking or anything. and i think i'd stop watching the show if it had been, because that would indicate the producers had allowed the writers from "undressed" to hadnle the last scene. sheesh.

this discussion is cracking me up, incidentally. it's very twisted and entertaining.

c said:

I agree.

something

than that,

Oh, yes.

Daria's _behavior_ is changing, but there is no evidence that her core values are. I don't think that she'd act totally out of character because she had a sudden horny urge. She'd be more likely to get out of the car if she did, to _avoid_ yielding to it.

Yep.

It certainly would be a violation of Daria's established character.

[email] (c.) wrote in :

Strange IIRc we already did that one a couple of years ago :)

Agreed, and much more intelegent as well, just imagine how Helen, Jake or Quinn would react.

As far as we can tell yes I waould also agree that he is probably too much of a gentleman to do it either....humm guess Jane [and possibly Trent/ Amanda/Vincent] might know :)

<Butthead> uhuhuhuh that would be cool if we like saw Daria doing 'it' uhuhuhuh </Butthead>

Yeah there's loads more places where they could be much more comfortable, Daria's bedroom for example, at least then they could throw each other around and not get hurt......well it does have padded walls and all.

Phill.

Phill Harvey-Smith wrote:

none of that annoying "you got dents in your head that tell me all the beds you've been shoved on" syndrome, huh?

god, a dead boys reference. where the hell'd that come from?

[email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote in :

Not usually a problem, thy can be erm "moved aside" :)

I know, I was being pedantic :)

It's not good having *any* time inturrupted by one's partner's relatives :) (no i *WONT* go into detail !, at least not in a public forum :) ).

Phill.

In article ,

I'd say it was nothing more than an extended version of what we saw in DDMD.

Not a good way to have any time end:-)

A.J.

In article ,

due of

some

I

a

on

they

all

trouser

parents

statement

is he

being

Well, I have my doubts too that anything beyond a serious make-out session took place. On the other hand, this session was INITIATED by Daria (a first, no doubt) so maybe she's more willing than Tom had thought.

to

base

was

who's

quite a

relationship.

he

Spoiler Space - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Anyone care to comment on the possibility of Tom's sister complicating Tom and Daria's relationship? Tom commented, with something less than approval, on his sister's "faux cynicism" (or something to that effect). Will he see a little too much of that in Daria?

Peace Kevin

"KTrick45" wrote in message news:[email]...

and

his

little

I think he sees Daria's cynicism as real. Maybe his sister's is, too, but I don't know.

In article , "Jeg7777" wrote:

I know we've seen Elsie once, but she reminds me of something that Daria was like during the first season with a little extra bitterness at the world thrown in for good measure.

A.J.

In article ,

complicating Tom and

approval, on his

little

But Daria has real cynicism. And Tom so far has just found it to part of her offbeat sense of humor, which he likes. Whether it eventually wears thin or not won't have much to do with Elsie.

Ok... time for Sara to whip out the reality stick. At the beginning of the episode Daria _clearly_ blushes when Tom kisses her when he picks her up for their date. To assume that they would have sex in a car in front of her own house is - IMHO - completely out of character. Yes, she did become more assertive with Tom towards the end of the episode but that in no way indicates that she would be willing to have sex on the street. Plus, at the beginning she had not met his family yet. And she wasn't avoiding him then.

My opinion on his comment was that he was just upset that she never wanted to see him... I tend to read a lot less into the episodes than many others who frequent this newsgroup. I think taking it slow for your average high school female means something very different than for Daria, who's never had a boyfriend before, has only one real friend and puts up many walls between herself and others. I think Tom just wants to get past the walls first and make sure they're down before sex even comes into the picture.

Personally, I don't think they're even up to anything more than kissing... I think that would be dealt with at some other time. We know Daria's not too thrilled with her body, boyfriend or no boyfriend. I think that there are way to many self-conciousness issues before we can assume anything about them having sex.

I would not necessarily agree with this. They are in high school. Most people do not have seious relationships then, as I don't think they should (few exceptions). They are still young and there is no reason to get serious with someone who you "get bored with". The whole point of dating is to figure out what qualities you are looking for and which ones you are not. I think you end up hurting more people in the long run if you pretend to be interested as opposed to telling the truth. Now, if he just didn't suck face behind her back with her best friend, I would have said Tom did the honorable thing.

Now this I would agree with. I think Trent has appeared in a more favorable light this season - that may go somewhere.

Sara

- as a side note, I am _so_ glad that Tom is not Eric's son as some people were wildly speculating a few weeks ago. I never thought that was a plausible option and would have been extremely dissapointed if they added it as a tie in.

"Betrayal... betrayal... betrayal... betrayal... " -Trent

In article ,

know

Or is Daria TOO thrilled with her body? Remember "Quinn the Brain"? Daria, dressed in Quinn's style, put Quinn to shame. She has a slim and attractive figure, a bit more womanly than Quinn's girlish cutesiness. It took a lot of self-confidence to conceive and pull off that stunt.

But Daria, as she herself has admitted, often works hard to keep people away and at a distance. Keeping her body hidden under unflattering clothes helps serve that purpose.

can

Yeah, self-conciousness I believe.

jerk > > guy who's showed serious interest in her and that's been adequate to > > get quite a reaction out of her, but it's not enough for a long-term > > relationship.

Most

to

friend, I

<bangs gavel authoritatively> Point of order - one can have a very attractive body and still not like it and not like showing it off. She knows she _can_ look like Quinn but I don't think she's comfortable enough in her own skin to do so. She didn't want to dress like Quinn, she just did it out of necessity.

I was just making a point that Daria tries to hide herself behind baggy clothing so I thought it was absurd to think that she already got naked with Tom.

Sara

Sara said:

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I see your point.

Besides, if she was going to "get naked with Tom," she wouldn't do it _in a car parked right in front of her parents' [address] :)

In article ,

off

like

She knows she _can_ look like Quinn but

She

baggy

naked

Did you mean "Daria's not too thrilled with SHOWING OFF her body"? I'll agree with that. I interpreted "not too thrilled with her body" to mean she thought she had an unattractive body; if she thought that, she never would have tried her stunt in "Quinn the Brain".

I don't think we really disagree.

I agree with you that we agree... never mind :)

I meant that Daria seems uncomfortable with her body and doesn't like showing it off. I don't think she sees herself as unattractive, just that she's not comfortable showing anything off, for whatever reason. That's what I originally meant about self concious - not in the "I don't look good" way but in the "Everyone's staring at me and it's weirding me out so I prefer to wear clothes that hide my body" way. Sorry for not making myself clear at the beginning.

Sara

SM said:

Oh, I agree. Frankly, from everything we've seen of Daria so far, I would assume that she's going to go slowly, and not get very physically intimate very rapidly. (Tom more or less reassured her that he would be ok with that, if you remember, earlier in that same scene). If she _did_ decide to go all the way with Tom, I think she'd be smart enough to arrange a more private situation than parking right in front of her parents' house!

I agree. While I'm not a major Tom `shipper (I see some potentially fatal flaws in him), he's a nice guy, not a hormone-crazed beast. I don't think he's sexually pushy ... indeed one of the flaws I see with him is that he may be too emotionally _detached_. And if he was, I don't think that Daria would let him take advantage of her.

My good friend Marie agrees with you.

That's a very good point.

Haha....damn best line in the whole movie, imo ;-) which isn't to say that the movie wasn't good...it was highly enjoyable. It was just funny after seeing Trent emerge from a cloud of obliviousness to advise Jane and Daria on more than one occasion, he slips back into "oblivious musician" mode.... oh yeah, and what was so "shocking" about the bisexual undercurrent (Bif Naked's character and Jane)? It was exaggerated by the press much more than it was, or maybe I'm just comfortable with the thought. <shrug>

Johanna "I'm so ugly but that's okay cuz so are you"~Kurt Cobain "Fred Durst can surf a piece of plywood up my a$"~Trent Reznor

<< "Fred Durst can surf a piece of plywood up my a$"~Trent Reznor >>

Go Trent!

~Aabi who's already-great respect for Trent Reznor just increased... Now you too can smell like a B-movie star!

Maybe the reason she blushed is that she was having, um, _unusual_ thoughts at that point.

It wouldn't be the first time sex caused someone to act out of character. I've seen it in real life. But now that I've thought about it some more, I think you're _probably_ right.

In that case he's much more patient than your average eighteen-year old guy. (You know the joke: They think about sex one time per day because they think of it all day.) He may be willing to wait, but I think sex is already part of the picture...at least as a possibility.

Daria may not exactly be thrilled with her body but I've never thought it was a huge issue with her. I've always sort of visualized her as one of those people I thought was beautiful though they didn't satisfy conventional standards of beauty. (Unfortunately all such women I've known in real life had defective personalities.)

You're right. But Daria doesn't seem to have much middle ground between "ironic detachment" and "absolute seriousness." Can you imagine how boring (as well as unrealistic) literature would be if everyone always did what they should?

Now there's something I learned the hard way. Though I guess I wasn't the person who should have been learning it. The individual in question...well, I probably shouldn't get into it.

We'll see.

Kevin

Kevin said:

All the evidence of his behavior with both Daria _and_ Jane strongly implies that he _is_. That's one of his _good_ points.

Well sure ... actually, the _big_ reason I don't think that they're going to have sex soon is _Daria's_ reticence, not his. He _is_ male, after all.

I actually think that Daria, once she gets over her fear of committment, will be perfectly capable of having a serious relationship. And I've always had her pegged as the sort of woman who isn't satisfied with anything less.

(Jane's actually similar to her in that respect, which is one reason she was so horrified when Tom broke it off with her, and why she was shocked by Allison's attitude. Jane's general flaw is that she is impulsive, and overly trusting once she decides to trust at all).

In article ,

implies

Absolutely. He put up with Jane's moodiness, tantrums (the Gummi Bear incident), self-absorbtion (working on art for hours while Tom waited around), unexpected and unwanted surprises (Jane-Cam). And of course Daria's on-again, off-again attentions.

going to

all.

imagine

I don't think it's commitment she fears. She fears intimacy, any sort of self-revelation, and any strong emotions.

She also fears being vulnerable and getting hurt by people. Ironically, the fact that Jane was hurt when she and Tom got together probably makes it more obvious how much she'll hurt if she really gets serious about Tom and then loses him. The good news is that Jane seems to be fully recovered and that may give Daria some courage.

always had her

she was so

Allison's

trusting

Yep. And I guess she'll do it again.

Emerson)

In article ,

That's exactly it. She's overly afraid, she admitted it herself, it's a sign of weakness to her as of yet, could you imagine if she were to be rejected by Tom, after opening up somewhat, the walls would go up higher and thicker than ever before.

She will. But I think she will find the right guy if she keeps trying.

A.J.

On 28 Aug 2000 09:19:04 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

[This is Kevin]

Ummm, the existence of Luthien and Beren's son, Dior (and granddaughter Elwing, and great-grandsons Elros and Elrond), could be considered pretty strong presumptive evidence that they did.

I've got to say no, not even a subtext moment. It would require Daria to not even think about being visible through the front window, when we've seen her for the last 4 seasons to be very attuned to when Helen is watching her.

Actually, I was kind of expecting to get a 'watch Daria squirm' moment when we were seeing the silhouette of Jake chasing Helen on the front window.

[email] (William George Ferguson) wrote in :

Well that's strong evedince that she did with *SOMEONE* :) Please note I know nothing of the parallell story that Daria is being compared with....just being pedantic again....guess you get that way about reproduction, working in a Biology department :)

<Tommy Sherman>He wants to watch.....I dunno !</Tommy Sherman>

Yes she does seem to have a sixth sense abouth that, but I guess most people get like that about their parents, it keeps them out of trouble.... (no It doesn't stop them doing things, just not where they'll be incriminating themselves :) ).

Humm they where doing that again.....dunno perhaps they should have a *THWAP* <Butthea>Shutup Beavis</Butthead>

Phill.

In article ,

I mean, of course, BEFORE Beren died.

It's from JRR Tolkien's Silmarillion. The best version of the story IMHO is either in _The Book of Lost Tales, Volume Two_ or _The Lays of Beleriand_.

Kevin

[email] (Kevin) wrote in :

Ah that explains why I missed the refference, tried reading Silmarilon once but gave up cause I found it too hard going :(

Phill.

In article ,

     So maybe they just lost control...hmm, I wonder if that ever happens
in real life.  Daria is so used to keeping her distance from people that I
can easily imagine her losing control when she no longer has that
safety zone around her.
     Still, I imagine you're probably right.  I hadn't paid attention to
whether they were visible from the front window, but I assume you're right
in saying they were.

If you'll notice, early in the movie she blushed just because he gave her a quick and not especially romantic kiss. I don't think she's actually prudish; it's more that she's awkward and embarrassed in a situation that's so new to her.

     It's not like football.  I think you can just say "baseball" without
creating confusion between different games with the same name.  (A huge
flame war in rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc was sparked on that point.)
     I've never been very clear on exactly what these bases were but I
sort of thought third base did involve disrobing...maybe I shouldn't get
too explicit.

I guess no one except me likes David. I've never seen much sign that Tom is really an intellectual---has he read Dante? David obviously is. I just hope we see more of him in future episodes.

Kevin

Kevin said:

Sure ... many things are possible. But there's nothing about the camera fading out on the shot of that parked car that necessarily implies "sex". "Making out", yes. "Petting", maybe. But given what we know of Daria so far, probably not full intercourse.

Oh, she _did_ in DDMD, remember? But she regained control quickly. She's passionate, but also strong-willed.

Helen was watching them at first, remember?

Well ... "prudish" might be the wrong specific word. "Serious", "passionate", "highly moral", "perfectionistic", and "intense" might be more precise descriptors. I don't think she'd be comfortable with a merely short-term sexual relationship, is my point.

I'll do it for you:

"First base" = "kissing" "Second base" = "touching the girl's breasts", also called "petting." "Third base" = "touching the girl's crotch", also called "heavy petting". "Scoring" = "full sexual intercourse"

Yes, these terms are sexist and imprecise, and they ignore the possibility of intermediate stages. (To our current President's delight, there is for example no mention of oral sex in there). Oh well. What do you want ... they were invented by generations of horny teenagers :)

I liked David. Unfortunately for him, he met the wrong Morgendorffer girl.

It would be kind of cool if David showed up again. But I wouldn't count on it.

In article ,

girl.

Or did he? I'd like to see Quinn pursue this.

E

In article ,

girl.

Actually, he met Daria first. When he first showed up at the Morgandorffer house Daria answered the doorbell and gratitiously insulted Quinn as soon as he asked for her. I don't think David found this very appealling, and frankly neither do I. Quinn had done nothing to annoy Daria (at least nothing recently), and Daria had no business insulting Quinn behind her back.

Joe Gottman

In article , Joe Gottman writes:

She insults Quinn all the time to her *face.* And the latter usually deserves it. It's not like she was being a coward or a liar or telling David anything he wasn't about to find out in a few minuters anyway.

-IdentityCrisis

Joe Gottman said:

That's a very good point. To understand _why_ Daria would do that (and still be a decent person, overall) you'd have to understand the whole Morgendorffer backstory ... which, of course, Dave didn't.

In article ,

Really? I'd love to see Quinn better herself, get to what he'd call deep,and then who knows?

I agree with this,however. I think it was a one time thing, it would be great to see him again especially with above scenario, but I doubt it.

Odd coincedence, David looks exactly like one of my friends, and they have the same last name, Sorenson.

A.J.

<< I guess no one except me likes David. I've never seen much sign that Tom is really an intellectual---has he read Dante? David obviously is. I just hope we see more of him in future episodes. >>

What about the discussions Tom and Daria had before he broke up with Jane? Like discussing The Prince?

~Aabi I'd call that intellectual...::shrug:: Now you too can smell like a B-movie star!

In article ,

certainly

main

If so, and this is not some deep defining part of his personality, he may benefit from having a girlfriend who isn't.

Uh, the Lanes ARE pretty wierd. Even for non-snobs.

he "got

I don't think that's his basic personality. The trouble is his relationship with Jane was slowly fading and he didn't DO anything about it but carry on without enthusiasm (and pass time with Daria).

He seems to have learned from his mistakes in this area. Notice how he confronted Daria: "if you're not serious about this, let's quit now."

He's serious about Daria. As he was about Jane (at first).

Emerson)

In article ,

line.

time

I'm not really certain since; I never saw the episode, I only saw a still picture once, and I can't find it now, but;

David seemed to resemble Daria's alternate reality boyfriend from the "It's a Wonderful Life"-style B&B episode. Am I completely wrong here?

In article ,

fuzzy

ATTENTION

never

Intellectual interests. A sense of humor and the absurd. Curiousity.

Uh, no, he doesn't. I supposed they could just be anti-social together instead of alone? Daria doesn't need a he-Daria for a boyfriend. Relationships need complementary differences as well as similarities. And I don't think David has much of a sense of humor.

line.

time

over at

I wondered about that too. But it's not "fairly clear".

Like I said.

people

bad

She's still feeling guilty over how much Jane was hurt by the way she and Tom got together. And she's reminded of this when she sees Tom. Or was until the end of IIFY.

showed

reaction

Well, of course, a lot of high-school romances don't pan out long- term. And of course a friction-free romance doesn't make for interesting TV.

But I think he's definitely right for her at this time. After her little talk with Link, I think she's definitely ready to get away from sitting in her bedroom, reading, most of the time. I think she was seriously disappointed Tom didn't ask her to go to the fund-raiser.

In article , "Jeff Cuscutis" wrote:

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Some random thoughts on the movie.

My first thought as the movie started was "Oh my God! That's Mr. O'Neil! I'm blind!" :)

I found it interesting that Brittany was merely impressed by Daria dating Tom, while Jodie seemed to be the one who was shocked. (Loved that line "Hell's frozen over, and Tom's here with me.") Brittany's pre-existing respect was simply elevated a notch or two but either Jodie had a lower opinion of Daria than we've been led to believe or she thought the same thing that many viewers have: "Damn, Daria's love life is going better than mine."

I liked the entire Fashion Club checking-out Tom as they walked past him. Still can't wait to see their reaction to learning that he's dating Daria.

Ms Li is definitely losing it. "Show your school spirit with the gift of urine." That's over the top, even for her.

When Quinn semi-told off Sandi at the end, I gave the TV a thumbs-up and shouted "Yeah! Go Quinn!" I can definitely see a sort of symbiotic relationship developing between Quinn and Mr. DeMartino. He gets to see a student that he had previously dismissed as hopeless benefiting from his teaching, reaffirming his career choice. Quinn gets praise from a teacher to confirm her intellectual development and superiority to the Fashion Fiends.

Wow... I can't beleive I forgot to comment on this... you just jogged my memory.

*Did anyone else notice that the question that DiMartino asked Quinn was the same one that he asked Daria in "Esteemsters?*

That was kind of weird. I'm assuming (please correct me if I'm wrong) that this is the first time Quinn's had DiMartino as a teacher so both of them got asked the same question on their first days in his class. Strange coincidence...

In article ,

my

was

I KNEW that rang a bell!

No, she had him last year. Remember, her "guardian angel" saved her from having to answer his question about Roosevelt's Big Deal when she hadn't done the reading. I think she probably just has him for a different history class this time (European History last year according to David, possibly American History this year?). Since he DID have her last year, he was probably all the more impressed by her newfound knowledge.

I don't know. I think that it was a treat for the fans that have been there since Day One. A nice sense of completion. Whatever.

I think in NY high schools it goes: 1 year of World/Euro history (about up to the Reniassance), another year of the same (1500- present), then American History Junior year, then Politics in Government or some equivalent to that Senior year.

<< I think in NY high schools it goes: 1 year of World/Euro history (about up to the Reniassance), another year of the same (1500- present), then American History Junior year, then Politics in Government or some equivalent to that Senior year. >>

Denver schools (or at least Denver School of the Arts) goes like this:

9th grade: Government/Geography 10th grade: Amer. History (::shudders::...I'm taking it AP this year) and you can choose 11th and 12th grade...there's all sorts of histories offered...

~Aabi Now you too can smell like a B-movie star!

In article ,

That's what I figured, too. Very nice touch, though remember Daria's life has changed drastically sinc she was asked that question, is this also a bit of foreshadowing on Quinn changing as well? I sure hope she continues to grow from this.

That's exactly how it goes, at least thats how it was when I graduated in "93. Mine was for a regents diploma at the time, don't know if it was different for those going for the regular, non-regents diploma, though.

A.J.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:07:49 -0400, SM wrote:

The big question is, what does this say for continuity? Daria took American History during her sophomore year... two years (four seasons) ago. Now Quinn is taking it... as a junior, since she was a freshman when Daria was a sophomore. So, either Quinn had to repeat it (and remembered it from the last time, which is why she could answer the question so well given the guts to do so), or Daria was ahead as a result of her education in Highland.

And a new crack emerges, through which reams of new speculation will ooze...

In article ,

was

wrong)

both

class.

This is a stretch, but perhaps it's like the system we use in our high school with American and English Lit. Each is offered every other year . . . so you can be a junior taking American Lit, since you took English Lit last year, with sophomores in your class because English Lit won't be offered until next year for them. Next year they'll be juniors in English Lit with new sophomores . . . who will take American Lit THEIR junior year.

As for Social Studies in our school, it goes: Freshman: Economics/Civics Sophomore: History of American Democracy Junior: No requirement (but there are plenty open, and most people try to get into Psych and Soc) Senior: American Government.

<snip>

Wow, that's weird. Maybe it's because I went to a small school, but we all took similar English courses at around the same time. Well, sorta. There were major differences in sophomore level honors English and regular sophomore English, and senior level AP English and regular senior English, but at least there were SOME similarities.

Ours was:

Freshman: World Geography Sophomore: World History Junior: U.S. History (w/ AP option) Senior: Government & Economics

I also took a social sciences elective my senior year, Intro to Law.

And that above was basically what everyone was required to have as far as social sciences were concerned (well, of course minus the Law course).

LI

On Fri, 08 Sep 2000 04:24:26 GMT, Lady Interference wrote:

At Edison, it went like this:

Freshman: Modern World History Sophomore: No reqired corse (and few elective options in the area of Social Science Junior: US History Senior: Gov/Econ

Similar, but we got world history earlier, and no geography. That was taken in junior high.

Personally, I'd like to see an early west civ corse taught during that empty year. Either that, or a group of possible electives.

tarvok wrote:

I'd say the latter. Daria's probably been following an AP or academic track, while Quinn's most likely in the normal or business track. American History may fall in different places in each of these.

Peace Kevin

In article ,

Don't know if you saw "Groped By an Angel" which took place in the last school year, Quinn's sophomore year, she talked of DeMartino asking her a question about Roosevelt's Big Deal, remember her grades weren't too good last year necessatating a tutor, so I'd personally have to say she's repeating the grade, that's what I get from all of this.

A.J.

[email] writes:

I doubt it; repeating a grade would be nearly as unfashionable as being a brain. Also, I think we'd have seen coronaries from both Helen and Jake if that were the case.

I'd have to guess that Quinn's grades sit fashionably right around B- to C+ -- not too smart, but not quite average either.

Aaron

Well, Quinn's now a Junior, same as Daria at the beginning (& Daria's now a senior). I guess DeMartino's Junior History class always starts like that...a lot of teachers use the same lesson plans, over and over...

In article , SM writes:

I caught it. For a moment there I even expected her to throw in something about the mexicans not appreciating it, though that would probably have been going a little too far.

I doubt it. He seemed to know her well enough that he *didn't* expect her to address the question when she raised her hand.

Not really. Quinn's a year behind Daria and they transfered in around the beginning of the school year, IIRC. Which means that Quinn is now taking the exact same course that Daria transfered into and DiMartino would be covering the same material.

-IdentityCrisis

"Michael Sears" wrote in message news:8oe171$cp8$[email]...

heh heh...love the song, though.

No, Brittany got into the soap-opera aspect: "she's dating her best friend's boyfriend!" Jodie was shocked that Daria was dating at all. And knowing Daria as well as she does (though not as well as Jane) who could blame her?

In article , "Jeg7777" wrote:

Jodie

life

friend's

knowing

her?

Maybe it's my own negative self-image talking, but when she started "I never considered..." I mentally completed it with "...that a good looking guy like him could ever possibly be interested in you." The stress of Jodie's workload _was_ causing her to become increasingly harsh toward people.

"Jeg7777" writes:

Kevin and Brittany aren't smart enough to really be shocked by anything that subtle. Simple reality shocks them several times a day. On the other hand, Jodie knows what good friends Daria and Jane are, so she's one of the few people who would know what a big deal it was for Daria to date Tom.

Aaron

Michael Sears said:

Brittany has always been aware of Daria's charisma.

She was shocked that Daria was now dating Jane's former boyfriend. Remember, Jane came to her with her problems in "Fire!".

It's not that Jodie had a _lower_ opinion of Daria. It's that she had a _higher_ one.

Oh, quite possibly. Remember: he doesn't show it very openly, but it's pretty obvious that DiMartino _likes_ Daria, and any other student who is willing to make the effort. DiMartino's neurotic rages are born of frustration, and one source of frustration for him is the unwillingness of most of his students to give a damn. If Quinn starts to care, DiMartino will like her. He won't gush on about it (like O'Neill does): in fact he'll probably respond by challenging her even more. Because he'll _respect_ her, as he already does Daria.

Yeah. Disturbing that one! :-) But I'm sure Ms. Barch _loved_ it...

I missed that, seemed they zoomed right by oblivious (no scorn for Daria, etc.)

What better way to trick your students into drug tests? I'm sure Brittany and Kevin were soon in the office...

Fiends? I LOOOVE Tiffany!

In article , "PeterTHX" writes:

Speaking *strictly* as a loved-starved, hormone-crazed heterosexual male virgin in his early twenties...

She's all yours, buddy. <goes off to a corner and retches quietly>

Sorry, Tiffany-fans... ;7

-IdentityCrisis

In article ,

Hey she's cute, with the personality, social skills, and brains of a brick wall, what more could you possibly want? :-)

A.J.

wrote

...annd...thaat...voiiiceeeee...   :-)

Sleepy, yet a sexy sound.

[email] (PeterTHX) wrote in :

Which is ok if you gag her apart from at bedtime. Humm maybe they aught to market a tape of Tiffany talking to help insomniacs not be insomniacs.....

Phill.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 05:27:41 GMT, [email] wrote:

Tiffany's got a promising future in videos....

--- Gun control, the theory that Black people will be better off when only Mark Fuhrman has a gun.

Check out:

[email] (Christopher Morton) wrote in :

Yeah alongside "Bob Scratchit" and "Tiny Johnson".....for those of you not familliar with these characters check out the B&B Christmass special....

Phill.

On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 09:15:45 +0000, [email] (Phill Harvey-Smith) wrote:

I didn't say what KIND of videos... of course she'll have to move to Southern California.... : )

--- Gun control, the theory that Black people will be better off when only Mark Fuhrman has a gun.

Check out:

[email] (Christopher Morton) wrote in :

Heheheh :)

Actually in some ways Brittany has better um assets for a carreer in those sort of videos :)

Phill.

On Fri, 1 Sep 2000 09:24:44 +0000, [email] (Phill Harvey-Smith) wrote:

I don't know. Brittany has too much intelligence and too much personality! : )

Besides, Tiffany reminds me of someone in particular.... : )

I don't think she'll age that well either....

--- Gun control, the theory that Black people will be better off when only Mark Fuhrman has a gun.

Check out:

Charles Morton said:

Who?

She'll ... get ... fat?

In article , [email] writes:

Ah, no. Not to me, she isn't. The vacant stare just doesn't do anything for me. <shudder>

The brick wall. At least I wouldn't have to remember to water it occasionally like all the other vegetables. :7

-IdentityCrisis

In article ,

"PeterTHX"

male virgin

Wow. Taking the time to apologize to both of them. That's nice of you.

In article , Michael Sears writes:

There's actually *two* of them? Wow, I just used the plural form to be nice- <g,d,R!>

-IdentityCrisis

On 29 Aug 2000 16:13:24 GMT, [email] (IdentityCrisis1) wrote:

She may be the hottest in the FC, but she's also the least tolerable.

In article , "PeterTHX" wrote:

past

dating

Daria,

They all turned in unison to look at him as they walked past. (Including Quinn!)

In article ,

dating

A scene formed in my head after posting this:

(The Fashion Club is standing in the hallway, within earshot of Daria. Sandi looks at her disdainfully, then turns to Quinn.)

Sandi: I can't believe such a cute guy is dating your...cousin, or whatever. What could he possibly see in a geeky brain like her?

Tiffany: Yeah...geeky...

(Stacy looks uncertain but doesn't say anything. Quinn clenches her fists and grits her teeth in an attempt to control herself. She fails.)

Voiceover of David's comments about her "loser friends", Daria's supportive advice, and Mr. DeMartino's praise of her abilities.

Quinn: That "geeky brain" is my sister, and she's already accomplished more in her life than a loser like you ever will Sandi.

Sandi: Excuse me? Loser? Quinn, given this little outburst, and your recent brain-like behavior, I afraid that, as Fashion Club President, I'm going to have to call an emergency meeting to reconsider your Club status.

Quinn: Let me save you the effort. I quit. I don't need this mutual appreciation socirty anymore. Go find yourself another sycophant.

(Quinn turns and stomps away. Sandi and Tiffany look stunned. Stacy hides a smile. Quinn grabs a stunned Daria by the arm.)

Quinn: C'mon Daria. Let's go have lunch.

Daria: Quinn, I never thought I'd say this, but I'm actually proud of you.

Quinn: Thanks Daria. For the first time in a long while, I actually feel proud of me too.

"Michael Sears" wrote in message news:8ogtk7$psl$[email]...

I'd like to see something *like* this, but this is too "Afterschool Special"-ish for me. :-)

In article , "Jeg7777" wrote:

past

Should be "mutual admiration society" Type in haste, edit at leisure.

Well, it is something that I threw together at the spur of the moment. And typed in great haste before leaving for work (hence the error above). My point was just that Quinn would finally realize that she doesn't need the Fashion Club to feed her ego, and that she really does love her sister..

"Jeg7777" writes:

"Coming up next, a very special episode of Blossom."

 :-)

Aaron

In article ,

<Six> They're not car keys! They're . . . condoms! For a party! </Six>

Ahh, old SNL references.

I'm very disappointed in you, Blossom...

~Aabi Now you too can smell like a B-movie star!

It would make a good scene in a fanfic though? <hint>

Or it will be a scene in an upcoming episode in Season 6...

:)

Michael Sears wrote in message news:8ogtk7$psl$[email]...

THAT I'd love to see someday! Quinn finally rejecting the Fashion Club! Hope it happens.

Belle Book

I'm afraid that probably won't happen until the final two episodes of "Daria", probably. They need the whole "Quinn's-in-the-Fashion-Club-and-popular-and-a-total-antithesis-to-Daria" schtick until the very end. If Quinn rejected the Fashion Club now, part of the momentum of the show would be lost. They would need a DAMN good replacement for the 'Club, and I'm afraid that any replacement would have to be shallower and bitchier than anything Sandi could dream of.

OMG. Did I actually talk about the show? And not a mention of...OMG, it's going to rain...wait, it DID rain this afternoo...ohhh...

LI

I agree. What I'd like to see is some of the developments with Quinn in IIFY carried over into the fifth season and slowly,surely change her into a person who can finally outgrow the Fashion Mob. And I think this will happen.

Jeff M.

I'd like to see those developments change her into a person who can finally outgrow the Fashion Mob too.

Belle Book

Maybe it's a convergance...

Daria begins to care about her looks more and lightens up a little in order to keep a boyfriend (cause this Tom thing ain't a fixed quantity, y'know)...

...while Quinn starts to lose the fear that depth and smarts will make her a social loser...

and they both end up somewhere in the middle, a bit more healthy and able to stand each other as people.

We've already seen the impossible -- Daria not only does something nice for Quinn (that's happened before) in the scene in IIFY where Quinn's bawling her eyes out over her tutor, but actually consoles and ENCOURAGES her...

This presumed convergence kills the characterizations that make the series work -- but maybe that's the point, because the producers will be tying it up to end the series.

That's the problem with caricatures... work with them long enough and care about them, and they'll turn into characters that seek to better themselves!

beardo

you'd prefer it if they gave her BDD?

a woman doesn't live to have boyfriends, you know.

quinn should lose the fear of being a social loser, imho.

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:01:10 +0100, miss bossy-pants wrote:

Alas, not every woman is *you*, Alli. I think there may actually be one or two women on this planet who *do* want to have, and keep, a boyfriend. Nah, can't be. ;-)

read again. i said it wasn't her purpose in life. are you disagreeing?

On Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:32:59 +0100, miss bossy-pants wrote:

I'm not disagreeing that it's not Daria's purpose in life to have a boyfriend. Of course, if you read what I quoted above, you said "A woman", not "THE woman" (meaning Daria). Quite a difference, that. :-)

i meant "her" as in "a woman", not as in daria, sorry. that it is not a woman't purpose in life to have a boyfriend.

Alli said:

What's BDD?

True, but someone who deliberately rejects all human contact won't be happy, normally speaking.

The extreme irony of Quinn's fear of being "unpopular" is that her popularity actually comes from her deeper personality, which is visible at times peeping out from under her mask. That's why Quinn's truly popular, and Sandi isn't: because deep down Quinn is a much nicer person than Sandi is.

body dysmorphic disorder (or somesuch). basically, hating your appearance irrationally, like an anorexic. or micheal jackson.

would you say daria rejects all human contact? i wouldn't.

i think quinn would be fairly popular even if she weren't ultra-fashionable, because she's bubbly and confident. if she weren't so keen on being popular she might be nice to unpopular people, too.

Alli said:

I don't, and that's why I think she's going to continue to have boyfriends. Probably not many, but that's more cause _she's_ cautious and choosy than due to any lack of attractiveness or social skill on her part.

And would thus, ironically, be more popular :)

I don't know... if you find most humans unworthy of contact then you are pretty happy rejecting them. It all depends on your perspective. In my opinion, I'd rather speak to only one person for the rest of my life if I found that relationship more gratifying than talking to 5 billion soulless shells of people.

Sara

Sara said:

I definitely believe that Daria is, and always will be, a practicioner of "quality over quantity" both with friends and boyfriends. But that doesn't mean that she'll always be lonely. She isn't now, either in terms of friends or in terms of having a boyfriend, for instance.

Sara wrote:

Fair enough, but I don't believe any people are soulless shells. Maybe rotten souls inside fetid, decaying shells. Sometimes timid souls inside coconut-hard shells. Sometimes it's worth the effort to try to crack the shell and find the soul inside. Sometimes, obviously, it's not.

Peace Kevin

Bearded888 said:

I could easily see this: I don't think Daria's likely to become a Fashion Plate anytime soon (and if she did, Tom in particular wouldn't go for it; remember his reaction to Jane's change of "image" in "The F Word?") but she has already started wearing a little subtle makeup and being more sociable. I could see her relaxing her rigidity; and indeed she'll have to in order to progress in life, in some minor ways.

This, I think, has already happened too. In the movie.

Yep. Because, for one thing, their oppositeness is more superficial than either of them realize.

Daria loves Quinn. And, I think, vice versa.

work

Or it could lead to more interesting and complex situations for the characters to be in. And the introduction of new characters. Tom, note, has become a very important character, and we didn't meet him until # 313.

I don't think they were ever meant totally as "caricatures."

In article ,

I totally agree, though you never know. I never thought they'd show Daria with a boyfriend before the last eps of the series as well, and originally I thought it'd be Trent like a lot of people, I was wrong over those last two, so I could be wrong about this as well, but if they did, what could they possibly replace the FC with?

It's okay. It doesn't happen too often. How often have we seen posts about Daria in a Daria NG? Everyone does it, however rarely it happens, so don't fret:-)

He who has just had the week to forget and made it here to post for the first time in a week and a half,

A.J.

On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 04:09:42 GMT, "Jeff Cuscutis" wrote:

Quinn's finally standing up to Sandy. Sandy's either on her way out as president of the fashion club (and doesn't know it), or Quinn's going to outgrow them and leave herself.

Either way, I have a feeling it's going to be a bad day for Sandy, no matter which happens.

--- Gun control, the theory that Black people will be better off when only Mark Fuhrman has a gun.

Check out:

semi-spoiler space

At that, could Stacey be far behind? Seems that a cue may have been taken from the popular fanfic portrayal of Stacey as being more underfoot than being a member of the FC...did you notice the bit with her and David, where she was actually apologizing to him for her ignorance regarding the subject they were discussing and -without even arguing him like Quinn did initially- made it clear she wanted to do better? And then it just folded when she found out Stacy and Tiffany had dropped David.

I dunno. Anyone?

-nick reffuse

**can you find dilinger at the smithsonian or not?**

(cut the "crap" to email)

On 28 Aug 2000 14:07:56 GMT, [email] (nick reffuse) wrote:

Stacy needs a role model. God help her, but Quinn could be it, especially if she takes Sandy down a peg or two. Quinn could be a real friend to her, certainly not like that pin-headed shrew, Sandy.

--- Gun control, the theory that Black people will be better off when only Mark Fuhrman has a gun.

Check out:

In article , [email] wrote:

taken from

being a

she was

they were

made it

found out Stacy

That would be good. I'd always felt sorry for Stacy, but after her exchange with David, I was thinking "Stacy, you're pathetic, you're hopeless, who cares." If she'd just show SOME backbone!

M Man said:

Stacy was rather in the position of someone drowning in a huge vat of orange soda who pulled away from a helping hand because she likes the taste of orange soda SO much.

M Man wrote:

M Man, *ewww*.

"nick reffuse" wrote in message news:[email]...

from

a

was

were

Stacy

Stacy was apologizing because that's what she does at this point. He gave her what she thought was the "stupid" look her mother gives her. She's an extremely insecure person, and it showed right there. Then when she found out that (note what really happened) David dropped Sandi and Tiffany and they didn't tell her, she completely fell apart.

On 28 Aug 2000 14:07:56 GMT, [email] (nick reffuse) wrote:

Unfornately, I missed the movie. But I've read about it, and my roomate saw it. (I completely forgot and watched "Hook" instead, which I can't say I precisely regret, since Hook is a good movie, as it is). I don't think Stacy is that far behind. She might decide to follow Quinn out, but she's still totally codependent. This could explain why she apologised about her ignorance, though I'd have to see the scene to be sure. He was the only one around, so she bowed to him by default.

Realize that this is a concession on my part. I was among those that supported the Smart Stacy Hypothesis. The Stacy presented in various fanfics was neat, but I don't think the Stacy of "Daria" is like this at all. She's nice on her own, probably, but she'll always bow to whomever seems to have the upper hand.

According to my roomate, Sandi actually got the highest score, but lied about it to not appear "geeky". By my hypothesis, Stacy would be the one to do that. Speaking of Sandi's score, it doesn't surprise me terribly. I always knew she was smarter than Tiffany (most vertebrate life forms are), and probably more so than Stacy (never said she was a genius). Her getting a better score than Quinn is mildly surprising, but not very.

Tiff had the lowest score, and Sandi did indeed lie: she got a 920 to Quinn's 955 (there's a quick cut to Sandi's paper).

Her's was lower, and Quinn's smarter (but she'll never admit it).

Tarvok said:

She'd be better off following Quinn than she is right now, following Sandi. At least Quinn would be less likely to abuse her.

Plus, Dave was an intidimidating authority figure, from the perspective of Stacy (or any member of the FC). He was a college-age man: they're just teenage girls.

One of the reasons why David was able to get through to Quinn with that little speech was his social status. It was brought forcefully home to Quinn that she might seem shallow and worthless _to someone of higher social status than her_.

Stacy didn't seem _stupid_ in the movie. She seemed neurotic, insecure, self-abusive, and confused.

Look: it's very clear that Stacy has some serious neuroses (and that Sandi in particular uses them to dominate and abuse her through). She's close to a complete nervous breakdown. Someone in that sort of state is expending so much psychological energy simply staying (semi-) sane that they don't have much to spare for formal problem-solving.

Sandi's mother, Linda, is clearly a highly intelligent (but nasty) woman. It's not surprising that her daughter matches her in both aspects of her character.

Actually, everything I've seen of Quinn says she's just as likely to abuse Stacy (and has) as Sandi, she'd just be nicer about it. Quinn treats her toys well, Sandi is the pull-the-doll's-head-off type.

Think of her treatment of the 3-Js, she totally abuses them, but is always pleasant and polite about it.

So yes, Stacy is much better off with methadone-Quinn than heroin-Sandi.

Of course, we may be using different meanings of 'abuse'.

Wiliam George Ferguson said:

ROFL!!! Good one!

She only "abuses" the 3 J's to the extent that they permit her to, and not one step further. And I suspect from their behavior that this is exactly how they want to be treated.

She does NOT go out of her way to hurt their feelings. She is selfish, not cruel.

Heh ... very good analogy :)

However, there's an important point here. The way Stacy is, she doesn't have the self-confidence to leap from following Sandi to being independent. Maybe she needs to follow Quinn for a while first.

She'd get hurt less that way.

In article ,

Plus Quinn at least cares for some people. Sandi appears to only care about herself. Any way you slice it Following Quinn would be better than following Sandi, even if only marginally for Stacy.

A.J.

have

Maybe

What surprised me is that even Tiffany has started "putting" Stacey in her "place".

Peter THX said:

"place".

That's what happens when you have ZERO spine. Even the littlest predators think you're fair game.

I disagree entirely, she abuses (exploits would be a better term) the three J's because they're _Guys_. It's all occurs within the context of the whole dating thing. In fact in her view, they're not being exploited. They're getting the benefit of her wonderful presence for a couple of hours in exchange for picking up the cheque in Chez Pierre. OK she has a rather bizarre sense of values, a very inflated ego and a certain talent for manipulation but there's nothing really malicious about her.

[responding to Jordan Bassior saying Quinn wouldn't abuse Stacy]

As I said, we may be using different meanings of 'abuse'. Quinn uses and manipulates people, treating them as objects more than people, every bit as much as Sandi. In fact, Quinn is arguably much better at it than Sandi. All we have seen Sandi able to dominate/manipulate is the FC, her clique, while Quinn has shown the ability to manipulate a wide variety of people in a wide variety of settings.

You're right that Quinn does not act maliciously, just without regard for the interests of others. In a lot of ways, Quinn is a classic Randian, she is completely self-centered, but intelligent enough to realize the benefits to self of treating others civilly. I can only remember her acting with overt vindictiveness twice, when she tried to rat out Daria for breaking Helen's Commandments, and sitting in the back of the bus watching out the back window with satisfaction, at the end of Daria Hunter (and in the 2nd case, if she refrained being at least a little vindictive we'd have to start calling her Saint Quinn).

Quinn, as I said, is completely self-centered, but she understands and very effectively uses the technique of treating others well to get them to do what she wants. If Stacy is going to be codependent, she'll take a lot less damage being codependent on Quinn than on Sandi.

On the other hand, that's not a terribly healthy situation for Quinn.

In article , William George Ferguson writes:

Quinn, much like Sandi, takes after her mother a lot. Helen knows how to use the catch-more-flies-with-honey routine (though she overdoes it), at least with those outside her family, and Quinn's probably grown up watching this act. Linda, OTOH, doesn't bother with honey or vinegar, instead going straight to battery acid. Not the best role model Sandi could have had.

Quinn's also picked up her mother's get-what-you-want-at-any-cost attitude. Consider what sort of impression must it have left on her mind, growing up with such immortal lines as, "Absolutely not! It's unproffesional, unethical, possibly *illegal* and I'll have no part of it! Okay, I'll do it."

"Classic" Randian? I wasn't aware we came in differant flavors. ;7

Speaking as an objectivist (or "Randian," if you prefer), she's got a good grasp on the "tit for tat" part of relationship management, but she's still got a long way to go towards figuring out what types of relationships are actually *healthy.*

Maybe it's just the Rand referance, but I suddenly just had a flashback to one of her books...

Ellsworth: All things are simple when you reduce them to fundamentals. You'd be surprised at just how few fundamentals there are. Only two, perhaps. To explain all of us. It's the untangling, the reducing that's difficult - That's why people don't like to bother. I don't think they'd like the results, either.

Dominique: I don't mind. I know what I am. Go ahead and say it. I'm just a bitch.

Ellsworth: Don't fool yourself, my dear. You're much worse than a bitch. You're a saint. Which shows why saints are dangerous and undesirable.

...Now I've got this warped image of Quinn as Dominique, putting out a fashion newsletter and doing her damnedest to bring down Daria, Jodie and all the other good guys. Yeargh. Thanks for the image. :p

It could evolve into one if she weans Stacy off of her. The way she's headed, she just *might* be mature and capable enough to do it by the end of the series.

What worries me is that, with Quinn being too intelligent, resiliant and subversive and Tiffany's brain being like a wind sock anyway (empty and blowing whichever way the wind is), Stacy is Sandi's only real whipping-girl, which the latter is definitely *not* going to want to give up easily. She may end up the focus of whatever power struggle ensues between Sandi & Quinn.

I don't think Stacy could take having to choose at this point... She'd probably snap. Quinn might be able to surgically implant a spine in her first, but she'd need to get Sandi out of the picture for a while. Hmm... Machiavelli, anyone? ;7 -IdentityCrisis

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I think the PSAT scores were telling: Quinn 955, Stacy 940, Sandi 920, Tiffany 902. Quinn was underacheiving. I think we saw close to maximum performance from the other three.

I'm not so sure. My take is that Sandi isn't particularly bright, is bitter about it, and uses the nastiness she's learned from her mother to cover up. She's vile.

My take on Stacy is that she's of average intelligence, wishes she were smarter, and has been so emotionally abused by her parents because of it that she's adopted victimhood as her lot in life. She's pitiable.

Tiffany's too stupid to know how stupid she is. I think she might have been lying about that 902.

Peace Kevin

On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 03:33:06 GMT, [email] (Daryl Sawyer) wrote:

Sandi's score was actually closer to Tiffany's. She deliberately said that her score was 956 in order to once again make herself look superior to Quinn, who, at 955, actually had the highest score of the four (followed by Stacy, Sandi, and Tiffany).

In article ,

She actually didn't. Quinn got a 955, Sandi only got a 920, but said she got a 956 just to be better than Quinn's score. Ironic, too Sandi saying she was smarter than Quinn, even though brains aren't exactly high on the FC priority list.

A.J.

Actually, Stacy got a 940, Tiffany a 902, and Quinn 955. Sandi got a 920 but she says, "956."

On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 03:33:06 GMT, [email] (Daryl Sawyer) wrote:

And now, having seen the movie, I realize that my roomate, once again, saw something that was not there.

i thought she lied in the other direction...she actually got a 940 but said it was a 956 right after quinn said she got a 955.

Christopher Morton wrote:

i think Quinn's growth during the movie was maybe the most interesting, and even exciting (if you're the emoting type), character development of the whole thing.

did anyone else notice the striking similarity of Quinn's answer (to Demartino's manifest destiny question) and Daria's answer to the same question in "Esteemsters?" that little 'stinger' she added to the end of her answer showed a real cynic brewing somewhere underneath all that foundation. and as for that little standing-up-to-Sandy thing, i think it speaks for itself. i constantly found myself yelling "yes! yes! punk freakin' rock!" every time Quinn pulled further away from the Fashisti. okay, i wasn't really yelling that out loud. i would never use the phrase "punk freakin' rock" out loud. that's just too weird for me.

In article , "c." wrote:

interesting,

of

of

I don't think Quinn's ever been afraid of Sandi. She mostly plays mind- games with her: "Oh, Sandi, I would never imply ... "

Fashisti - that's a good one. I like it. Daria would like it. She'll be pissed she didn't think of it - or did she, in some episode I've never seen?

phrase

M Man wrote:

i was thinking about "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie" and her admiration for the Italian Fascisti for some reason the other day (i have no freaking idea why), and this led to "Fashisti" in my post because "Fashion Fascists" sounded too obvious.

"c." wrote in message news:[email]...

I didn't feel she was being cynical with that "Hollywood" remark. She's grown, but not quite *that* much.

Jeg7777 said:

I really think she meant the Hollywood remark as a joke.

"Jeg7777" writes:

I agree; I think the "Hollywood" bit was to show that while she's more knowledgable than she was, she's still got years of Fashion-oriented learning to overcome.

And she must have had DeMartino for a teacher before, considering his surprise at her good answer. If this were her first class with him, he'd have probably seen her last name and expected her to be a good student like Daria.

Aaron

<< okay, i wasn't really yelling that out loud. i would never use the phrase "punk freakin' rock" out loud. that's just too weird for me. >>

Especially when discussing Quinn.

~Aabi Now you too can smell like a B-movie star!

Suzie Q. Doe wrote:

"Never before more than I had to be...Tonight, feel like a bitch!" Sorry, I just had to wallow in the glorious KITH-iness of that line, especially here on a.t.d. :-{)>

MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

make GEORYN disappear to reply

"The world of the heterosexual is a sick and boring life." --Edith Massey

N.P.:nothing

<< "Never before more than I had to be...Tonight, feel like a bitch!" Sorry, I just had to wallow in the glorious KITH-iness of that line, especially here on a.t.d. :-{)> >>

Wooo! A kindred spirit...here on atd....

~Aabi Now you too can smell like a B-movie star!

In article , "c." wrote: Das Spoiler Space 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0

I'm drawn to the portrayal of Daria and Quinn as young adults in the episode in which Daria writes a story about what she wants her life to be. That Quinn had realized how shallow she had been, but still married Jamie, who sounds like a prick with a capital P, and has at three kids by him. Somehow I don't want to see exactly that Quinn, but someone who goes after someone who is a bit more... Well, smarter.

Of course I'll be old and gray by then if the series lasts that long...

In article , [email] wrote:

Hmmmm... you don't suppose the Fashion Club is taking a turn for the Heathers? If Quinn starts dating Trent and wearing a monocle, Sandy better look out... ;-)

On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:14:00 GMT, Clay Halliwell wrote:

Sandy better avoid the hull varnish cocktails! : )

--- Gun control, the theory that Black people will be better off when only Mark Fuhrman has a gun.

Check out:

In article , Christopher Morton writes:

Oh, gods... I just got a sudden visual of Kevin and Upchuck being found dead in the woods with a bottle of mineral water...

I need a shower *NOW...* ;7

-IdentityCrisis

On 29 Aug 2000 16:13:26 GMT, [email] (IdentityCrisis1) wrote:

Then Kevin's dad could blurt out how much he loves his "dead, gay son"! : )

--- Gun control, the theory that Black people will be better off when only Mark Fuhrman has a gun.

Check out:

Oh dear Lord...with nothing on but their UNDERWEAR... *gasp*

Ewwwwwwwwwww! Ewwwwwwwwwww! Ewwwwwwwwww!!

*shudders*

Oh man, I can just picture Mr. Thompson by Kevin's casket..."I loved you for who you are!"...noooooooo...

LI (going to have horrid nightmares tonight)

In article , Christopher Morton writes:

Stop it. You're breaking my heart. ;7

<world's smallest fiddle plays a sad, sad tune in the background...>

-IdentityCrisis

In article , [email] wrote:

I agree there, though I'd lean towards the second one as of now.

Either she'll be beaten for the presidency, or she'll be told off by Quinn once and for all what they (the FC) really are.

A.J.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 01:29:47 GMT, [email] wrote:

And if that telling off comes, at this point it'll probably be very short and pithy, something on the order of Sir John Gielgud's "To meet a man of your qualities, one must ordinarily visit a BOWLING alley" from one of the "Arthur" films. : )

--- Gun control, the theory that Black people will be better off when only Mark Fuhrman has a gun.

Check out:

In article , [email] wrote:

Not only that, but when it does happen, I have a feeling it will be in the last or next to last episode in the series run, and without a season 6 signed up yet and the movie developments, this could be the last season coming up, I hope I'm wrong, though, I would like at least a season 6, after that it's all icing on the cake, AFAIC, whatever happens so be it.

A.J.

In article , "Jeff Cuscutis" wrote:

fuzzy

physical

cool

ha ha

over at

that was cute

her

I thought maybe they'd go out

yeah

ha ha

bad

That was pretty cool but was is pedagogy?

of him

I just wonder why Jane and Tom were kissing at the same time they were supposedly expecting to break up?

I was glad the "movie" didn't deviate much from the show. I just hope Helen doesn't continue to improve her mothering - it's more fun to see her stressed and ignoring the family!

And I can't believe all the voices that are done by the same people!

Mary

wrote in message news:8oe7n0$kvm$[email]...

And yet, when it's counted most, she's had the right answers for Daria. She may spend lots of time at work, but she *is* a good mother.

In article , "Jeg7777" wrote:

news:8oe7n0$kvm$[email]...

see

Daria. She

Oh c'mon, let's not get carried away - she's on the phone as usual and claims her "daughter's home so she wants to hang up the phone to catch up with her" but she really wants to make another business call? She's a nutcase and I love it!

Mary

me,

On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 17:32:16 GMT, [email] wrote:

I was rather flustered by that; Quinn used a word I didn't know! But my roomate knew. A pedagogue is someone who knows a lot, knows they know a lot, and is very loud about that fact. I think the proper spelling for the word Cuscutis tried to use is "pedagoguary," but I'm really not sure.

In article , [email] (Daryl Sawyer) writes:

It's "pedadogue," which literally means "teacher," and "pedagogy," which means either:

• the profession or function of a teacher, or

• the art or science of teaching; especially, instruction in teaching methods.

So states the almighty unabridged. :7

-IdentityCrisis

tarvok wrote:

Pedagogy is teaching. A pedagogue is a teacher. I think the word Quinn wanted, as defined above, is "pedant." Unless she meant "teacher", which is possible. So it could be an ironic mistake. Or not.

Peace Kevin

In article ,

Quinn wanted,

possible.

Um...thanks?

Mary

[email] (Daryl Sawyer) wrote in :

To cut it down to it's bear minimum then, a big headded arrogant bastard !

:)

Phill.

In article , "Jeff Cuscutis" wrote:

fuzzy

physical

About what I expected. Not the second coming of Ellen De Generes.

A kinder, gentler DeMartino? Could it happen?

His name was Link. Not so surprising. Daria has a soft spot for kids - remember Tad in "I Loathe a Parade".

Interested to see if this continues and exactly how.

Somehow, this HAD to happen.

over at

her

I wonder if that tutor (Dave?) will somehow turn up as a continuing character.

bad

Tom seems like an awfully patient sort. He put up with Jane's blow-ups over Gummi Bears and the like for a long time. And now Daria's on- again, off-again attentions.

I wonder how much of Daria's ambivalence toward Tom is due to her ingrained anti-socialness and how much is due to her guilt over hurting Jane in the process of getting together with Tom. We'll have to see if either or both were REALLY resolved.

How about Quinn helping Daria realize that her balking at the (real or imagined) snobbishness of Tom's family was just a smokescreen for other feelings?

What happened to Tom and Daria's long intellectual conversations - which brought them together in the first place? Are they just going to watch TV together like Tom did with Jane? That would not be good. Maybe they had a good discussion of political economy after they were done steaming up the windows :-) .

And her pedagogue?

of him

"M Man" wrote in message news:8od7ag$gk9$[email]...

She put it in a whole "you shouldn't judge him by his family" way, making reference to their own relationship. But Trent was more to the point: "You're not dating THEM."

Jeg said:

That was, incidentally, a very mature thing for Quinn to say.

And _that_, all things considered, was an incredibly honest and caring thing for Trent to say. Note that _both_ Lanes gave Daria good advice and acted as true friends to Daria on the Tom issue, even though it was against both their personal interests to do so.

In article ,

The Lanes have always seemed like good people to me. When the chips are down you cancount on them to help out. A little scatterbrained sometimes, but basically they're good people, they don't seem it with the bohemian lifestyle thing, but they are.

A.J.

"Jeg7777" writes:

Which was one of my (very) few disappointments with the show, since that's a terrible notion that pervades almost all of TV and movies. Heck, in most shows, the main characters don't even seem to have families.

Sure, if you're just having a short fling, families may be irrelevant. But if you're trying to establish something lasting, as Tom and Daria seem to be saying they want, then families are a big part of the equation. Unless Tom's going to disown his family and never see them again, Daria *will* be dating THEM. If Daria can't stand Tom's family or vice versa, that's going to have a significant effect on their relationship, and she *shouldn't* just pretend they don't matter.

Check out Ann Landers or Dear Abby sometime, and see how many of the letters are of the "I married this great guy, and now his mother/father/aunt/kid is making my life miserable" variety. Those people bought the notion that their partner's family didn't matter until it was too late.

Aaron

In article ,

What "matters" is not the partner's family, but that you or your partner not let the partner's relatives walk all over either or both of you. And I think this is what Ann and Abby usually say. If not, they should.

One of best marriages I know among my acquaintances involves a man from a very nice family and a woman whose relatives regularly bounce in and out of prison (exclusing a couple who stay there more or less all the time).

Aaron Baugher said:

There's a diference between "they matter" and "they are primary." Daria's primary relationship is with Tom, _not_ his family. Tom's primary relationship is with Daria, not _her_ family.

One of the nice things is at least every character gets to grow some extent. The special was nice at the end. It was a excellent movie.

In article , "Jeff Cuscutis" wrote:

fuzzy

physical

over at

her

bad

of him

In article , teak writes:

Yeah. Kevin, Brittany and the fashion fiends (aside from Quinn) really showed improvement, didn't they? ;7

Sorry, but some people just *can't* be helped. Though I'm still holding out hope for Stacy (mostly because I'm just a masochist at heart)...

-IdentityCrisis

In article ,

Absolutely. It was sufficiently good to cause me to find this group and say so, except you've beaten me to it. (-: Not only was it entertaining, but it was interesting to actually end up caring about the characters more and feeling good about most of the things that happened.

(snip)

So am I - you just want to take her aside and have a talk with her, don't you? (-: After all, all the fashion club stuff doesn't seem to come entirely naturally to her. She just needs some self-esteem.

-- Mark

"Jeff Cuscutis" wrote in message news:aClq5.1267$%[email]...

They never stopped being friends. They went through a rough period.

him

His name is Link, though "Daria Jr." has a ring to it. :-)

It was.

Ok... I'm going to comment on what I found to be one of the most stunning parts of IIFY - Jake.

Wasn't anyone else surprised by that whole thing with Helen and Jake at the end? Jake "make a funny"! He's not one dimensional... yippee!

Sara

SM said:

I was pleasantly surprised. I like Jake, I think that his love for Helen is very real, and I'm glad to see him finally starting to get over the darker parts of his past.

In article , SM writes:

I was. I nearly fell off of the couch when he gave that smart-assed look over his shoulder. Not only is he capable of being aware of what's going on, but he recognizes (and can cope with) the fact that he usually *isn't* well enough to play off of it. I didn't realize he was so conciously aware of his problems.

Hope for the future! Seems like alot of the main characters are showing improvement (Kevin & Brittany aside, of course). Now if only Stacy could grow more spine and staying power than the average cream-puff... ;7

-IdentityCrisis

William George Ferguson said:

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"Helen". Not "Jane". Though it's the same actress. Incidentally, I agree with you that this was well handled: Helen's picking up on this shows that she's far from oblivious to the nuances of situations.

Yep. What's even better is that Daria only realized this because Quinn and Helen pointed it out to her.

And is equally harmful, when it starts to interfere with the important things in her life ... as it was doing in the movie.

In article ,

And it seems to have really brought back his enthusiasm for teaching, somewhat. He didn't see the patented Morgendorfer sarcastic definition of Manifest Destiny as "suspiciously good", this time.

A long awaited development I was afraid we'd never see.

She seemed to have some questions, though.

Hopefully, they'll continue this development.

Yep, and hopefully, they will continue to let down their masks.

Oh, yeah...

E

EBailey said:

When DiMartino first met Daria, he was suspicious that she'd been coached (maybe he _always_ asks that question in his first class). Only after greater experience with her did he realize that Daria _really IS_ that intelligent.

DiMartino knew that Quinn was Daria's sister (how many "Morgendorffers" are there in Lawndale) and was perhaps not totally surprised that Quinn was bright too. He'd just spent much of the summer _with_ Daria, being exposed to her intelligence, too.

On 29 Aug 2000 12:01:24 GMT, [email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

Who exactly is "DiMartino"? Is he "Uncle" Anthony DeMartino's long-lost cousin twice-removed? A sinister imposter? A spelling mistake that's been perpetrated for four long years, even though the proper spelling is on more websites and "Daria" books and materials than I can possibly imagine? :-)

On 29 Aug 2000 15:34:47 GMT, [email] (Martin J. Pollard) wrote:

Don't you have anything better to do...

Kyle The Jeff Huson of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs

On 29 Aug 2000 16:20:17 GMT, herecomethehawks@hockeymail.....com (Kyle) wrote:

So, Kyle, tell me: exactly when did someone shove their arm up your ass and yank out your sense of humor?

On 29 Aug 2000 18:50:34 GMT, [email] (Martin J. Pollard) wrote:

That would explain the odd pains...

Kyle The Jeff Huson of alt.sports.baseball.chicago-cubs

Kyle wrote:

ROTFLMAO.

This is going down as my favorite exchange EVAH on this newsgroup.

Martin, Kyle, *please* continue...I *NEED* more of these...

LI

Huked on foniks wurkd fur me! :)

[email] (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:

[about DiMartino actually doing well as camp counselor]

I have six older sisters and an older brother. When I started school (more decades ago than I want to think about), all of my teachers in the 1st and 2nd grades had taught all seven of my older siblings (One whom was Valedictorian of the high school the year I started 1st grade).

I'm wondering if we are going to see some scenes this year of a teacher holding up Daria's academics to Quinn.

I take full responsibility for this because it was kinda my fault for insinuating that this is the first time that Quinn had DeMartino in class. This is of course incorrect as was pointed out before by some helpful soul. So this means that he has had her in class before and knows the typical ditzy Quinn. So I don't think he saw Morgendorffer and expected her to be smart like Daria.

Sara

In article , William George Ferguson writes:

I could see O'Niel doing it as an "inspirational" thing. Especially since that would probably be among the very *worst* ways to inspire her.

-IdentityCrisis

On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 01:14:25 GMT, [email] wrote:

*Anyone* would have a moment of doubt. Besides, I'm not sure if that was a moment of doubt, or a moment of horror. One does not go through one's first pass from a member of the same sex without some sort of reaction.